Before proceeding to read the in-depth responses sent in by John, I would thoroughly recommend to all my readers that you click on the track embedded to the side here. It is a cover version of Northern Lights, that wonderful Renaissance moment, taken from Together Apart, a charity album in aid of Low Grade Ovarian Cancer research. This track is simply about the most loving cover I have heard. It is sumptuous and life affirming. Enjoy, and please do visit the Bandcamp page and purchase the album at https://johnholden.bandcamp.com/album/together-apart-charity-album You can find more information at https://cureourovariancancer.org/

JOHN HOLDEN

Hi John. Thank you so much for agreeing to do this interview. Let’s start with what is an ostensibly straightforward question, but the world of intelligent music never provides for a simple answer, and long may that continue. If you were forced to describe your music to an uninitiated listener, how would you do so?

A nice easy question to start with haha!

I am often asked to describe my music however, after I’ve given someone a basic outline, it becomes obvious they’re usually completely baffled! This used to worry me, but I then realised it’s easier to say, ‘take a listen, then you tell me’!  Because the music has so many different elements in combination it becomes something else. It contains Rock, Jazz, Folk, Symphonic, World and Electronic styles; and sometimes all in one song! The key is to try to make the joins seamless and musically interesting. I hate labels but maybe, ‘Pan-Genre Fusion’ would be a good description.

Which artists are the biggest influences on your music and why, please?

Historically I always loved Prog music. I discovered YES, Genesis and Floyd when I was eleven. That music sustained me for the next twenty years! I did however always appreciate many different and varied artists. I was very open minded. I could listen to Close to the Edge and then put on George Benson or Eagles.  I think a high level of musicianship was always an attraction but at the heart of things I liked strong ideas and excellent tunes

You are a multi-instrumentalist and are responsible for the orchestration on your albums. Guitars, bass (I especially love some of the grooves you produce on this), and keyboards. Did you have any formal musical training, or are you self-taught?

I am completely self-taught. I have a basic understanding of musical theory but little else. This does mean I sometimes come up with unexpected sequences and modes that, by the ‘rule book’, I probably should not do. Having listened to so much music over the years I do have an instinctive feel for what works in the music.

Home is, I believe, in Cheshire. How does your local environment shape your musical thinking?

I live in a rural setting but apart from enjoying the views and the general relaxation the countryside offers, I don’t think that alters the music to any degree.

You have a keen sense of history, evident in much of your work. Please discuss your interest here and how it manifests itself in your music.

I generally enjoy history but what inspires me when I do ‘historical songs’ is really finding an interesting story. It is also about bringing the characters to life.

One of the most noticeable elements of your releases are the stunning guests you have playing on them. I think it is worth here, for readers not familiar with your albums, listing a few of them, because it really does read like a Who’s Who of modern progressive rock. You have had the likes of That Joe Payne, Marc Atkinson, Billy Sherwood, Oliver Wakeman, Peter Jones, Gary O’Toole, Nick D’Virgilio, Robin Armstrong, Henry Rogers, Dave Bainbridge and some obscure chappy by the name of Jeremy Irons, and these really are only the part of it all. So, the obvious question here is just how do you go about adding such an acclaimed roster to your work? Please do provide as much detail as you are able.

I work on the basis, ‘If you don’t ask, you don’t get’. When I started, I thought it would be difficult to convince people to participate, but when I started working with Billy Sherwood and Oliver Wakeman, I suddenly gained a form of credibility. With more people coming on board, it had a snowball effect. I would like to think that the quality of the music and the production was also a factor. Sometimes people are very busy, so I wait until they are available – such as Dave Bainbridge. It took a couple of years to have him involved.

I am only interested in bringing people into a project if I think they are right for the song. Just getting someone involved because they are well known is not the objective. It is what can they add to the music. However, it is amazing to work with such talent.

The extremely talented Sally Minnear & Vikram Shankar, important collaborators.

I have left out two musicians who have featured strongly because I wanted to discuss them separately. They both strike me as being quasi-John Holden band members, and they are Sally Minnear on vocals and Vikram Shankar on pianos and keyboards.

So, Sally first. The daughter of Kerry Minnear, familiar I am sure to most readers of this interview from Gentle Giant, Sally works with Dave Bainbridge, and I have added below a wee little compilation of this from YouTube and a link to their project Celestial Fire promo video. She really does have a wonderful voice, and I especially love the contribution on Kintsugi of the track Peggy’s Cove, wonderfully Celtic at its core, so reminiscent of Dave’s beloved Iona, but with your unique stamp placed upon it. Tell me a little about her and her contributions, please.

I have no singing voice whatsoever, it’s terrible! So, I rely on a core of excellent vocalists; Joe Payne, Pete Jones, Jean Pageau, Marc Atkinson, Iain Hornal and of course Sally.

Not only is Sally a good friend but she also helps me by doing a lot of guide vocals that go to the other vocalists. She comes over to my place to record and is amazingly quick. At the end of the session, she might have done two or three songs. The ones that I decide will suit her voice, she takes the demo and re-records her parts at home. She is a huge component in helping me realise what will work as a vocal line and which elements need tweaking. I think her two songs on Kintsugi were probably the hardest to sing but she always delivers.

Vikram Shankar is an almost embarrassingly talented musician from America. His piano playing drips with emotion. Readers can see his website at http://www.vikramshankar.com/ and I would heartily recommend they visit the portfolio section of this for some of his work. Please tell us how Vikram came to become involved with your project and what you feel he adds to the party.

Vik is extraordinary. He can play in any style and not only does he have incredible technique but, just as importantly, the ability to connect emotionally. We always talk prior to me sending him the demo. I tell him the background or intention and the feel I am looking for and he just instinctively understands. Sometimes what he sends me is so good I will alter the arrangement to make his part more of a feature. If there is a better musician around right now, I would be very surprised!   

Can I ask, please, whether you have considered, or are considering, turning your project into a more regular band to include some of your regular contributors?

I have considered putting together a live band. However, I would not compromise the expansive nature of the music therefore I would need a small army of people to perform it. In reality, I don’t think there is a large enough audience that would attend the shows and undoubtably there would be financial implications.

Okay then, let’s discuss the recorded works you have put out, and we shall start at the logical point, that of Kintsugi, your 2022 album which I reviewed recently. The word itself refers to the Japanese art of repairing broken pottery with lacquer dusted or mixed with powdered gold, silver, or platinum. What prompted this, please?

The original album title was ‘Building Heaven’ but when I wrote the song Kintsugi I felt it was a stronger idea and thematically linked some of the ideas in other songs. Repairing the person – not the object - with love instead of gold. Luckily people seem to grasp the idea very easily. 

My review stated that there seems to be a common theme on the album, not a concept as such, but a thread of resilience. Is this a fair observation?

Resilience yes. But also, the idea of ‘restoration’ Not just in physical rebuilding but also restoring the spirit.

Further to this, I referenced my interpretation of your lyrics in the magnificent Xenos as some (rightly) exasperation of the perpetual societal hatred of foreigners. There is an interesting dichotomy here, because the subject matter is extremely serious (witness the present political convulsions in the UK, at least some of which can be traced back to a “healthy” dose of xenophobia) but the track itself is rather light and breezy in its execution. Please expand on this track for my readers. 

Xenos is a song with a deep lyrical message for sure. I thought it might be interesting to take the music in an unexpected direction. I always thought Peter Gabriel did, what on the surface was sometimes quite upbeat and almost danceable, but when you looked deeper the words were very dark. Digging in the Dirt, Games without Frontiers etc. I just thought I would attempt something in a similar vein.

The final track is epic. Building Heaven is a modern classical piece set to progressive rock music, correct?

The marriage of rock and orchestra is nothing new. However, I have often thought that the normal approach regarding instrumentation is always somewhat predictable. My aim on these sorts of pieces is to blend and combine symphonic sounds with rock sounds. Not, ‘here is the rock guitar bit’ now, ‘let’s have the string part’. So, I will try melodies and supportive music on many different instruments (usually using midi) and then decide on what sounds best. I will then use that arrangement as the basis for the structure. Obviously, this process can take quite a while!

Kintsugi is the first album of yours which does not have Robin Armstrong credited with mastering duties, so can I assume that you are responsible for all of this for the new album? It certainly sounds fantastic, so I would be interested in learning how you personally made this transition.

Robin was an enormous help and acted as a mentor especially on the debut album. He is a perfectionist, and he instilled that approach into me. Basically, he had the experience that enabled the music to sound professional. After three albums I decided to try to do everything related to the production myself. That started with the charity track ‘Northern Lights’ which I was very pleased with and that gave me the confidence to do a whole album. I will always be grateful to Robin for his talent and patience!

A wonderful partnership - John & Libby Holden

So, let’s go back in time. Your debut, Capture Light, was released in 2018. This and subsequent albums lyrically were written alongside Elizabeth (Libby), your wife. As an old romantic myself (this website would be impossible without the support of Mrs Laz), I would love to hear about how you collaborate and the support structure in place allowing you to make this music.

The starting point is the discussion of possible song ideas and finding suitable ideas or concepts. This usually takes place over a glass of wine while we are cooking dinner. After a lot of brainstorming, the best or most interesting ideas will be kept, and the less-appealing ones are dropped.

The next phase is creating the musical framework and figuring out where the melodies and singing will be. Once there is a structure we start on lyrical ideas. These can come from me (to start with) then Libby works on them. Sometimes she will say, ‘I’d like to write this one’ and it might have minimal involvement from me. I think we write in very different styles therefore it keeps things fresh. Having done four albums, we have become better at not over thinking the process because we know things often change and evolve, especially when you hear a lyric sung.
Libby also listens to every version of the evolution of each track I write. Basically, we both live and breathe an album whilst it’s in production. It helps to have another set of ears and a different take on things. Libby is my fiercest critic but also my greatest cheerleader.

Looking back on the debut, what are your feelings about it in retrospect?

I think it has a naïve charm and although there are aspects that I would do differently now, I also think it was a pretty good start. I was amazed at how well it was received by the Prog community, and it was far more successful than I ever thought it would be. It also set a certain standard that came a level of expectation for what would happen next. I personally felt the follow up, Rise and Fall was a big step forward.

You had an endorsement from the one and only Steve Hackett. Tell us how he came to hear the album, please.

I had used Steve’s drummer (at the time) Gary O’Toole on a track. When the album was released, I sent Steve a copy as I thought he might be interested. I was surprised and delighted when he contacted me and gave it the ‘thumbs up’ He generously said I could quote his comments to help promote the release, which was so kind of him.

I would like to discuss One Race, please. This is not a political website, but it is one which abhors racism and intolerance. The track talks about a genuine hero, Jesse Owens, a man who literally forced Hitler’s nonsense back down his throat at the 1936 Olympics. The lyrics talk about him wondering how he had got there, so far from home, and standing alone with his family amongst those questioning his faith. Please elaborate on this wonderful track, please. (It is embedded above for readers to listen to – enjoy those jazzy grooves and gypsy flourishes).

I thought the title, One Race was a perfect phrase to describe the sporting event also reference the distorted Nazi claims about being the ‘Aryan master race’. The fact that a black man proved to be superior by winning four gold medals in front of Hitler was certainly making a point.

The song was also about how race relations in America at the time meant that a ‘hero’ like Jesse Owens was also subject to the overt discrimination pervasive in society. At a gala dinner in his honour, he was not allowed to enter the building with the ‘esteemed’ white guests, instead having to go through a side entrance! In the news at the time of composing, there were often stories of police brutality against black people, and it made me think ‘have things changed that much’? Often my songs are about individuals or events but also have a wider context.

Rise and Fall followed in 2020. Firstly, that stunning cover with Icarus in all his glory. Please discuss the cover design.

The first song I wrote for the album was Leap of Faith; about a medieval monk and the first recorded attempt at human flight. The song references Icarus and his father Daedalus. So, when the song Rise and Fall appeared it seemed that the theme for the album and therefore the artwork were self-evident. It was Libby who found the sculpture, Icarus Ascending’ by Nicola Godden while browsing the internet. I thought it would be perfect, so I contacted Nicola and she was happy for me to use the idea and even sent me images that helped create the artwork.

(Readers can view Nicola’s work at https://nicolagodden.com/ )

Sherwood & D’Virgilio make for an impressive rhythm section on Dark Arts, which I have embedded below. That Joe Payne shines in the vocal department, and this track is a strange brew of the heavy, orchestral, some gorgeous piano licks by Oliver Wakeman, and a killer guitar solo by Zaid Crowe. Ear candy to be sure, and I believe a real progression in style on the debut. A fair observation?

Yes. I think it was a chance to show that I do enjoy an opportunity to ‘rock’ things up a little. You are not going to get many Prog rhythm sections better than Billy and Nick. They took my demo parts and really put their own stamp on things. Joe did a great job vocally and I remember recoding the demo with him – the power and enthusiasm in the end section was an incredible sonic experience. That song is about political rhetoric and deceit something that feels even more apparent now than when it was written a few years ago!

Heretic is the first appearance by Sally, and her backing of Payne is sublime. Tying this together with Vikram’s piano and your orchestrations, this is a stunning piece of music which has a middle eastern sensibility akin to much of Gabriel’s Passion. Please discuss the story behind this piece and how the musical creativity was realised.

As became obvious on the third album we have a love of ancient Egypt. Originally, Heretic was going to be about Tutankhamun’s father, the controversial ruler Akhenaten who was called the ‘heretic king’ because he displaced the pantheon of existing gods with the monotheistic religion of ‘the Aten’ (sun worship). That is why the music has a strong middle eastern flavour.

The opening verse: ‘Let the desert claim the land. Bury memory beneath the sand. Let the wind consume at last. Cut the thread break the past’ was from the original concept where Akhenaten’s new capital at Amarna was abandoned immediately after his death. As the piece was being developed, the news coming out of Syria highlighted ISIS and its cultural terrorism. In particular, the brutal murder of Khaled al-Asaad, the 82-year-old Head of Antiquities at Palmyra, profoundly affected us.  So, I felt compelled to focus on that subject. In the same way that Akhenaten had been expurgated from Egyptian artefacts and chronicles, ISIS was attempting to eradicate a country’s cultural history.

Once again the original lyric felt exactly right, ‘Distorted theory blinded lies. The weeping ruins testify. Destroy the myth that cannot be. Rewriting truth and history’

I must admit that Heretic is one my favourites both lyrically and musically. I think it captured a strong emotion. You can almost feel the heartbreak and the longing of the people to return to their homeland.

Listening to this and much of your work, there are choral and compositional features in your music which can only, in my opinion, have come from a faith background, or certainly an exposure to the type of music heard in traditional churches across England. Please discuss this aspect of your music.

There does seem to be a thread that runs across the albums that involves religion and faith. From, Tears from the Sun about a priest who is sent to spread the Catholic faith through indigenous conversions in the Americas, to Building Heaven which asks what is of real importance?  The cherished and monumental buildings that symbolise heaven on earth or, how we treat each other? Obviously, the music needs to represent the subject, so ‘church music’ was important to convey the setting of the piece.

The Circles in Time album cannot be discussed without talking about your longest track to date, namely KV62, which weighs in at just short of twenty minutes and features, the aforementioned Mr. Irons. For obvious reasons given the subject matter of the discovery of Tutankhamun’s tomb, there are more Mid-Eastern themes in the music. It is epic in every sense of the word. Firstly, I love the hand pan by Nick D’Virgilio. Am I correct that he contributed to the writing for that opening passage?

Nick had done a short video that he posted on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=218560319338775
I thought the sound was very cool, so I used it as the basis of the Solar Boats section. I had to replay it as exactly as I could, because it needed to be in a slightly different key, but it was Nick’s original creation.

Payne & Jones duet as the main protagonists in the desert and are clearly enjoying themselves. The lyrical passage itself is inspired by real exchanges?

The section, One Last Season was based on Carter and Carnarvon’s meeting in June 1922 at Highclere Castle. After five years searching with no results, Carnarvon was going to stop financing digs in the Valley of the Kings. Carter was so passionate about the quest that he persuaded Carnarvon to fund one more season. So, the lyrical exchange is my interpretation of that conversation.

Sweeping and cinematic. Do you have any plans to perform this and other works of yours in the live arena?

I did think an expanded version of the piece would have worked well on stage and I spent a few weeks attempting to contact West End producers to discuss it, but at that time we were deep into Covid and there was no easy way to make contact. As the centenary of the discovery is 2022, I think the time for that to happen has now sadly passed.

There is more history in The Secret of Chapel Field, which is a tale of a murder in your locality at Hunsterson. Please provide the detail of this.

Some years ago, when visiting my village church, I was intrigued by an inscription on a nineteenth century gravestone. It said, 'To the Memory of MARY MALPAS the beloved daughter of JOHN & ANNE MALPAS who at the early age of 15 years & 10 months was, on the night of June 28th, 1835, most basely and cruelly murdered in CHAPEL FIELD HUNSTERSTON by THOMAS BAGGULEY an elderly married man. He escaped the punishment of the law by adding his own Death to that of his INNOCENT VICTIM.’

Libby and I wanted to write a song that captured the atmosphere of a Victorian ghost story. However, when delving deeper into the story, it became obvious there were many questions left unanswered, so we put a different twist on events and invented the father-daughter relationship of the protagonists.

Commercially, of course, the 2020’s are a challenging time for progressive artists. It is doubtful that we will ever return to the heady heights of album sales seen in the 1970’s, but I would be interested in learning how you think the genre can survive commercially going forward. How do you see the future of the John Holden project?

Currently, there is a huge number of Prog artists, and it seems like the genre is saturated. But then still more appear! The established big names possibly can sell out theatres, but at the next level down there is a huge drop and the reality is very few artists are financially viable. There is no real money to be made in album sales. Therefore, you have an army of musicians, generally with a very high level of competence, who essentially are doing it as a hobby.
Personally, it feels like there is a ceiling and its difficult knowing how to break through it to increase your sales and gain wider attention. I often discuss this with musician friends, and we ask ourselves, ‘Why do we do this’? I guess in the end it is because we love the creativity and the music. Having done four albums in as many years, I might take a break and see how I feel about things next year.

In closing, thank you so much for answering my questions. Do you have any final thoughts for my readers?

Enjoy the music. Support the artist!

John Holden creates some remarkable musical stories, and there can surely be no better example than KV62 from the 2021 album, Circles In Time, telling the story of the discovery of the tomb of Tutankhamun. This video is brand new in November 2022 and tells a fascinating story in words, music, and pictures. Grab a drink, settle back, and enjoy this wondrous creation.