I recently reviewed the debut album from Ghost of the Machine, Scissorgames, a very impressive work. Following the review, I made contact with lead vocalist and flautist, Charlie Bramald, and this interview has resulted. I am extremely grateful to Charlie and the band for one of the most in-depth interviews you will see on the progressive internet, so pour yourself a flagon of ale, sit back, relax, and enjoy!
Thank you ever so much for agreeing to this interview. Let us start with a question which requires immediate consideration, and is the subject of a few reviews, mine included. Ghost of the Machine is an obvious reference to This Winter Machine. Graham, Mark, Stuart, Andy & Scott all left that band. What were the circumstances behind the split, please?
Charlie: Thanks for having us, Steve!
Quite simply, the split was the right decision at the right time for all concerned. My bandmates had been moving in their own direction musically and as a group. It made sense to part ways and stick with the material they’d been working on together, and This Winter Machine would continue on its own path.
We’re a new band charting new territory but with the benefit of a shared heritage and a tried-and-true playing and writing partnership carried over from the previous band. The name we chose felt right as a nod to that legacy and the bond its members share.
And the natural follow up question to that is how did Charlie become involved with the new project, please? A potted history would be great.
Charlie: I’d been following This Winter Machine from very early on. I was an early adopter of the first two albums, I attended a lot of their gigs, and I was pretty close to the band in general terms. Your readers may find it interesting to learn that Al Winter [vocalist for This Winter Machine] was my singing teacher for a period. I also did the graphics design for the A Tower Of Clocks CD booklet.
In December 2019 Al was unwell and asked me to dep for him at the Slade Rooms in Wolverhampton, sharing vocal duties with Claire Owens [married to guitarist Scott Owens]. It’s fair to say there was a great energy on the stage that night, and I had a lot of fun singing several of my favourite This Winter Machine songs. When the split happened some 13 months later, Al gave me the heads up, on my birthday, that I was going to hear from his now former bandmates. Sure enough, the next day I received a message from Mark [Hagan, keyboards] inviting me to join Ghost Of The Machine.
It wasn’t a difficult decision, but I will confess to being nervous at first. I had no experience as the lead vocalist or lyricist of a band that produced original music. Up till then I’d solely sung in covers bands – a few of the guys had seen me with Harmony Of Spheres over the years – and provided backing vocals on a one-off track with Al’s Wynter project, but I was made to feel right at home from the first Zoom meeting during lockdown. An unusual way for a band to begin life, for sure. We carried this good vibe and the chemistry from Wolverhampton into the rehearsal room, and honestly, it’s been everything I could have wished for ever since. So, thanks for having me, guys!
Let us discuss the other projects before going onto Scissorgames. Firstly, I am, as I prepare to send this interview out, listening to Back from the Brink, the 2021 Nova Cascade release. A fine work it is, as well. Earlier this year, I reviewed the Eric Bouillette project, Solace Supplice. You must miss him very much.
Charlie: Thank you. Eric was a true gentleman of the scene – one of the kindest, loveliest, and funniest people I’ve had the pleasure to meet. Nova Cascade is conducted via remote recording from our own homes with many miles between us, but Dave Hilborne and I were fortunate enough to spend some time in person with Eric and his beloved wife Anne-Claire earlier this year. Music was calling for him and his final months were as prolific as ever in recording terms. You already mentioned the phenomenal Solace Supplice album, and as I write The Rise Of Medici from Imaginaerium is about to be released – two of my favourite records of the year right there. A fourth Nova Cascade album called The Navigator is in the works too, featuring performances from Eric which are no less than breath-taking. I know that he played through tremendous discomfort at times, but by the same token it seemed like that creative spark was helping to sustain him through those difficult days. We feared the worst when we heard of his diagnosis, but he showed us nothing less than his best and that’s how I’ll have the honour of remembering him.
There is a gorgeous ambient feel to the album with some delightful passages which allow the listener to relax, breathe, and prepare oneself for whatever comes next in a heightened sense of wellness. I know a couple of EPs have been released in 2022, but can you please inform my readers when the next album will be released and give us a sense of what we can expect?
Charlie: Nova Cascade’s The Navigator is due on 29 September 2023, and as you’d expect we will pay tribute to our dear friend Eric. The colours of the French flag feature on the album sleeve, and the music takes us on a journey through moments of melancholy and reflection, but also defiance in the face of darkness. Dave Hilborne is the project architect and the mastermind behind the compositions, and in keeping with the album title you will find us charting new territory, including the addition of a full choir(!), and I’d say it’s a more dynamic soundscape with even greater contrast between the peaks and troughs than you’ve heard from Nova Cascade to date.
I really do have to commend Eric’s contribution to The Navigator; it is some of the most emotional playing I’ve ever heard from him, and I appreciate the magnitude of that statement when you consider his remarkable body of work. His performances are astonishing and a testament to his character as much as his obvious ability. I don’t think Dave would mind me saying that we’ve shed tears listening back to the gift that Eric’s left with us.
We’re still quite a way out from release and there are still songs to be added. We’re very fortunate to have added the lovely guitar tones of Colin Powell (https://amultitudeofone.bandcamp.com/ , and a https://dougwoodsandcolinpowell.bandcamp.com/ ) to our project. Colin’s playing really complements the sound and vision that we’re going for and he’s slotted seamlessly into the way we work. With Nova Cascade, we’ve strived to evolve from one record to the next and I think that’s what people will hear again on The Navigator.
Listening earlier to A Tower of Clocks by This Winter Machine, musically this, obviously, has much in common with Scissorgames in terms of the influences and the huge wall of sound prevalent. I think, therefore, the natural question to ask here is the formative music which influenced all of you in Ghost of the Machine, the bands and albums which have had a lasting impact on you all creatively.
Charlie: Inevitably when five people move sideways and already have a strong writing partnership, you will find some continuity in approach and sound. A lot of that is underpinned by Mark’s compositions and arrangements. Mark, Graham, and Stuart have been playing and writing together in various guises for decades, so they have an understanding and a shorthand with each other, and a love for a lot of the same music, in and out of prog – I’m talking Genesis, Rush, Yes and Marillion of course, but also new wave, Gary Numan, Ultravox and such. Scott complements Graham so well because their styles and influences are quite different and they’re able to occupy different spaces within the music in a way that always feels natural. This builds up that “wall of sound” you mention – all these layers give us a lot of options dynamically and texturally. And Andy brings a muscularity and musicality to his drumming which elevates and shapes what we’re all doing. I’d say Andy is largely unencumbered by the influences that the rest of us share in common, favouring the likes of Dream Theater over Marillion (whom by his own admission he has barely heard), and he brings his own perspective into the writing process, always looking for ways to draw out the excitement in the arrangements and rhythms, encouraging us to play around with our ideas in a different way than we originally conceived.
Myself, I grew up listening to Genesis and Pink Floyd, as well as bands like Toto, TNT, Journey, and Iron Maiden (something I share with Scotty!), but it’s particularly my love for Peter Gabriel that left a mark on how I approach performance. I want to tell stories and bring a certain level of theatre to the music. My favourite album for many years has been The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway – I was fascinated by albums like that and, say, The Wall which have overarching narratives and distinct themes which span from beginning to end. And I grew up mesmerised by videos and DVDs of Peter Gabriel’s solo concerts. The scale of the shows he put on! With an unlimited budget and a large enough stage, I’d be a danger to myself and others.
So, to Scissorgames. Firstly, the cover, which does really grab the attention. It was designed by Claudia Caranfa. My readers can see more of her work at https://www.artstation.com/ragenruin She is based in Italy, so how did a Yorkshire band get to collaborate with her, please?
Charlie: I can’t tell you how happy I am with the response we’ve had to Claudia’s artwork and I’m grateful for the question. Claudia is a wonderful artist. Her background is primarily in book and magazine covers, and I’d recommend to anyone to have a look through her portfolio. I love the way she paints characters and conveys a scene. Scissorgames is in fact her first piece of art for a musical release. It came about because Claudia had done a cover for The Bone Way by Holly J Underhill, which was released through Nyx Publishing, my partner’s indie publishing house. I’d been searching for an artist who could paint human figures for the concept I had in mind, and Claudia’s style fit the bill perfectly. So, I poached my partner’s find!
I don’t quite know how she turned my dreadful stick drawing into something that good. She gave us a variety of poses to choose from, and I think she lured us toward her favourite concept (and ours) by putting that striking red and green colour scheme on the sketch with that resolute pose of the human puppet as she cuts the strings.
The vertical alignment of the full image was my idea… It’s not something you see too often on a CD booklet and probably for good reason in purely practical terms! But I think it worked out in the end – I was very relieved when I opened the booklet to be greeted by the full image, revealing the hand above the human puppet. Shout out to Alpha Duplication for accommodating our bespoke printing requirements!
In my review, I stated that the influences we discuss above are worn firmly on the sleeve. A fair comment?
Charlie: It’s certainly been the case that we attract comparisons to a set of artists from prog scene, from the obvious Marillion and Genesis, with hints of Rush that we might expect from our personal tastes to those that surprised us like Twelfth Night and Pallas, even Arena… those are some of the ones that we’ve read about anyway! It’s a double-edged sword, really. When we’re trying to advertise to music fans who might enjoy what we do, sure, it’s helpful to be able to deploy some of these names as a “jumping on” point, and if reviewers find elements they like and are able to draw similarities to then. that can be helpful for their readers. A lot of people will choose new music based on what they already like – it’s a surer bet. But at the same time, we don’t want to pigeonhole ourselves as one particular thing.
The choice of keyboard sounds and guitar tones can invite some of the more obvious associations with specific bands and time periods, absolutely, but our compositions draw much less from those bands than you might expect from first impression – Mark will touch on that a little later. And the rhythms we play around with, and the twin-guitars contrive to make us sound like Ghost Of The Machine. Ultimately, we’re just making music that we would want to listen to ourselves. Perhaps there’s a certain chemical reaction that occurs when you fuse six people’s creativity with the nostalgia of blokes who grew up listening to some of the bands that we get compared to!
I have written often about the fact I love it when influences are taken and moulded into something fresh and new, which I love, and the difference between this and a “simple” retro album, something I am usually less keen on. It strikes me that especially in progressive or heavy rock, this is a very difficult balance to strike. Do you agree, and was this a conscious consideration on your parts when recording the album?
We’re not looking to be a tribute to or a pastiche of that style of music. We certainly didn’t set out to make a record which sounds like X or sounds like Y. We’re also not trying to force ourselves to reinvent the wheel because that wouldn’t be honest and may well not sound good – we’re embracing the sounds and melodies that we enjoy. Very, very few artists end up considered to be the pioneer of a genre or a movement and, generally speaking, those kinds of artists typically evolve out of something that went before anyway. Simply, we push forward in ways that excite us. If a riff or a phrase sounds a little like a nod to one of those bands we love, we roll with it and don’t try to fight against our instincts; it will always sound like Ghost Of The Machine in the end. I think that’s how the consensus seems to be that Scissorgames still sounds fresh in 2022. The album is packed with melodic ideas and that’s the culmination of our process. What pleased me with Scissorgames is that we didn’t shy away from being pretty heavy in places. It’s been liberating to really rock on this album, and it translates so well to the live shows.
The overarching theme of the album is that of the tangled lines between love and abuse. The mental and physical abuse of people by their partners, all executed in the name of love, is a well-documented trait, but I would be interested in how this manifested itself lyrically and thematically in the album, please.
Charlie: It happened organically, and not out of any personal experience I might add! I tend not to write from my own point of view, but rather I go along with themes and stories that emerge while listening to the music. I try to see from the perspective of another character. One of the first things I worked on was the opening section of what would become Scissors (Reprise). The working title of “Scissors” and the mood of the piece drew me toward stories of abuse survivors who had killed their partners with household objects after reaching a breaking point, for example, the case of Sally Challen who eventually walked free after serving 8 years of a prison sentence. What might someone feel like in those moments after landing a fatal blow, having suffered for years themselves? Most people in this situation end up going to prison, of course… though it was the emotions that I focused on more so than the practical consequences.
As it happened, Graham had written the lyrics for Dead To Me and the idea of escaping from an unhealthy situation that was no longer working and finding the courage to move on was present there too. It wasn’t a co-ordinated approach, but it stuck, and the rest of the album manifested around these themes.
When I revisited the entirety of Scissors later in the process, I figured that, in order to reach the level of elation and relief you hear at the end, the abuser had to be fleshed out into something truly monstrous, and that’s how the Puppet King was conceived. Many abusers have an impact on more people than just their partner; they’re able to hide in plain sight, fooling everyone in their lives. The Puppet King can use his skills of disguise and manipulation to put distance between his main victim from those who might threaten to expose his true nature.
No matter how insurmountable a situation may seem, Hope’s promise can help us find the courage to make the hardest choices and cut the strings that bind us. Please expand on this.
In this album, the strings represent our bonds with all the people we meet, both good and bad. Cut the wrong strings and you lose those positive influences in your life, and like I said before, that’s a strategy many abusers employ… they get you to choke off those sources of support you once had, and they make you reliant solely on them instead. He gives you the scissors, but the game is forcing you to choose which string to cut. Cutting the right string to free yourself can be immensely hard. We were writing much of this through a lockdown and I think of how many people would have been forced to be in close quarters with an abuser during that time. The lyrics I found myself writing approached serious issues, but each story sought some sort of change by the end of the song – a hope that however bad things become, they might get better. I reckon most of us have a period of our lives that we look back on and we wonder, “why didn’t I change that sooner?”. Change is hard, and it can be a painful process, and facing the reality that life can look different than it does right now is only ever the starting line.
I must qualify this answer: people who find themselves in terrible situations often stay there for longer than we might expect, and outside eyes can struggle to understand why, but they will have their reasons. There are circumstances where it’s actively unsafe to try and leave an already dangerous situation, and examples where reaching out for help has sadly led to more terrible outcomes. I’d urge anyone reading this to be familiar with the signs of abuse so that if you or someone you know goes through something like this, you know about the resources which are out there to help. There are charities that do vital work in this area such as https://refuge.org.uk/
The album was recorded and mixed at The Chairworks in Castleford. It is a fair old complex, which readers can view at https://www.thechairworks.co.uk/ Talk us through the recording process of the album, please, particularly how the venue and personnel helped the band realise its vision.
Charlie: Being candid, my colleagues were not pleased with the sound quality of A Tower Of Clocks. As a listener and a fan, I was inclined to agree that the production didn’t do that set of songs justice. Whatever the reasons for that, it was a big factor when selecting where we’d record Scissorgames. Our debut couldn’t afford to sound subpar. The songs we’d written had to pop through the speakers and stand up against the wealth of great-sounding releases in a competitive market – I can’t help but notice how many excellent recordings have been released in 2022.
We were fortunately in a position where we could self-fund the production. We considered a few studios. The Chairworks had a very strong reputation, as did our choice of producer in Bob Cooper. We sent off our demos, and Mark visited the studio to talk through our vision with Bob – what we wanted it to sound like (and what we didn’t want!), and Bob really bought into it. He’d never worked on a prog rock album before, and certainly not tracks anywhere near as long as something like Scissors, but his meticulous research, fresh perspective, and modern production sensibilities, as well as his experience of recording a wide variety of musical styles, gave Scissorgames an edge.
The advantage of going into a big professional studio is the selection of very expensive equipment on offer to us (£20,000 compressors, anyone?), along with a quality engineer like Bob who knows how to use it and make you sound like the professional records you aspire to. Everything came out pristine and powerful. A great drum sound is always the foundation of a record and Bob nailed the sound just as much as Andy nailed the performances. He got the bass sounding crisp and punchy so as to highlight the melodic parts that Stuart had crafted – there’s a lovely twang to it and definition of the many notes Stu likes to play is preserved so well. I love how Bob got the distinctive guitars from Graham and Scott to sit in the mix alongside each other, and a lot of care was put into re-amping and applying the right effects for both the clean and the distorted parts. And with so many layers of keyboard parts from Mark to consider, from those spacious pads to the in-your-face synth leads, it was a lot for Bob to balance! I daresay his Mac’s hard drive and system memory were absolutely groaning under the strain by the end of the process.
Bob’s approach can be summed up as: “That was a great take! Let’s go for juuust one more”, except it was rarely “just one more”. He made us work bloody hard to keep bettering ourselves – it was more painstaking (dare I say perfectionist) than we were used to from previous recordings, but absolutely worth it! When I got in the vocal booth Bob was like a stage director giving me notes on how to play a character. We had a ton of fun experimenting with the delivery of certain lines, and we spent some time trying out different mics to find the one that would best suit my voice. A far cry from the cheap options I use for my homemade demos! Turns out all I need to sound good is tens of thousands of pounds worth of equipment 😉
All in all, it was fifteen days of recording spread across October 2021 to April 2022, followed by five days of mixing, with Jack Byrne assisting on edits, and then it was over to Grant Berry for that excellent mastering job. What we ended up with was an album that deserves to be played LOUD! We’re over the moon with the production and I’m confident it’s played a big part in how the record’s been received.
Studio & Producer - integral to the success of Scissorgames
So, to the tracks on the album, all of which I have embedded in this interview to enable readers to “try before they buy” (and please do). The album is bookended by a massive slab of music in Scissors, 28 minutes of music which places it in the extended epic category! Before we dissect it, I am interested in how this developed from ideas, to writing, to rehearsal, to final product. Was something this length deliberately planned, or was it a sort of organic natural progression, if you’ll pardon the pun?
Stuart: As a general comment, our songs end up being a long or short as they feel is right. Usually, we do not set out to write a long song. However, I think with Scissors we were looking to make a long form song from many smaller parts we had.
Charlie: It really slotted into place once we reintroduced the piano riff from the end of Scissors (Reprise) into the beginning of Scissors, but in a different key. When Mark switched from piano to that distinctive synth sound, we knew it was “the one”. The final piece of the puzzle. We had a coherent suite on our hands. What I always note when we play through Scissors is that it never feels as long as it actually is.
To quote from my review; “When I first listened to the opener, I really enjoyed it. Having now listened to it about twenty times over the past week, I love it. It really is a retro-prog rock track to fall in love with, but what sets it apart for me is that it is pretty much unlike anything else I have heard, certainly performed as well, in quite some time”. I stand by those comments very strongly. Those gloriously open synths against a backdrop of chords are an open statement of intent along the lines of “here we are, this is what we like, and this is how we intend to carry on”. A fair assessment?
Charlie: Twenty times! That’s quite a time investment, my friend! We must have done something right…
You’ve put our mission statement into words. For this album, there was a clear move toward something heavier than previous works and we wanted to announce ourselves right off the bat. Ghost Of The Machine despite its heritage is its own beast, and there was no better way to signal that than that opening synth riff. The way the band thunders in – it gets my heart pumping!
We discussed having a slow-building intro like those that worked so well on The Man Who Never Was and A Tower Of Clocks – Mark is a master at creating an atmosphere as you’ll hear on songs such as Mercury Rising – but with the opening song of this album, it felt right to charge out of the blocks and make ourselves known from the opening seconds.
There are certain bands who it is impossible to imagine anybody else singing and fronting. I didn’t even bother reviewing the IQ albums released without Peter Nicholls, because I will always associate that venerable band with him. When I listened to those first bars with you, I felt the same about Ghost of the Machine, because they have such an impact. So, where do you all see this project developing as you move forward?
Charlie: Interesting! Some bands do become intrinsically tied to their frontperson, but there again, Genesis survived against all odds without Gabriel (some might be upset if I said they even thrived, but in commercial terms they absolutely did!), and Marillion has continued with Steve Hogarth for longer than I’ve been alive. I should probably stop musing about this or the guys might think about replacing me…
Ghost Of The Machine is an unusual example. Instead of a band that’s found a new singer after a few successful albums, you have five people who not that long ago were playing in a different band with another singer. Now imagine the alternate scenario where I’d come into that already well-established band because the vocalist had left instead of everyone else. I suspect it may not have been received quite so well if that had been the case.
Like you say, sometimes a band becomes synonymous with a particular singer. I can’t really discern the formula for which band member you can lose while continuing to be the same band. The departure of any band member will have an impact – imagine Rush continuing without the late and legendary Neil Peart. There’s a vocal contingent that act like Genesis ceased to be after Gabriel’s departure, another faction that marks the end of the band from the day Steve Hackett left, and I’m just sat happily listening to Duke and trying not to let anyone see Calling All Stations in my collection. Then there are some bands like Yes that have played under the name with no founding members at all!
That’s a heck of a tangent with no real point other than to say I’m glad that Ghost Of The Machine is a new band which doesn’t have to get sucked into that kind of debate. What we’ve done with Scissorgames works because all six of us had confidence in the musical direction and we’ve had the opportunity to pursue our own sound and identity. You can hear some overlap with past ventures on account of the personnel involved, but Scissorgames doesn’t sound like a This Winter Machine record to me, and not just because there’s a different singer. It’s two different bands. Some listeners will like one band, some will like the other, and if we’re all very lucky some will like both. And that’s how it should be.
Like most bands on the circuit, we want to see where that road takes us to next musically and do as much as we can to keep growing our audience along the way. We’re really pleased with the reception so far and we hope that will continue. I’d like to see us share as many stages as possible with more of the great bands in this scene, and to have the pleasure of making more albums with this wonderful set of people.
I rather love the contrast in those first few minutes between the excitement of entering the game, but also the realisation of the truth that the participant was meant to lose and there was nothing that could be done. There are some personal experiences inherent within the lyrics here, so I would appreciate a more in-depth discussion about the background. As an example, when I first listened to the track, with the references to The Puppet King I (wrongly) imagined something political, or perhaps referring to pezzonovante, or big shots. Recent years have seen a surge in so-called populism in Western democracies. The second movement is distinctly pared back and talks about exposing hopes and fears, holding your life by the strings, with further references to said Puppet King. The theme becomes clearer and more personal when the Puppet King guarantees that if you cut the right string, then he or she will cut you free, but if you cut the wrong string, then you belong to me, thus exuding a tremendous amount of personal control over the victim, especially in the worship on your knees. This is powerful stuff and rooted within the real human experience for many people. The central question, therefore, is how such a theme manifested itself lyrically and musically, please.
Charlie: The political slant of it is interesting! Genuinely, I’d not considered it before now. But you can read it that way and it works. I’m more minded to keep overt politics out of the music and focus on people and their emotions and experiences, but the idea of a Puppet King gaslighting a whole nation doesn’t seem so farfetched when you consider the turmoil that some democracies have been through in recent years. Populism feels like a kind of abuse, on a grand scale – the way it divides, the inexorable lure of the lies… and then blaming someone else when all that was promised is shown to be a vapid fantasy. It’s just as viable an interpretation as a more intimate story of Hope’s captivity at the hands of her personal Puppet King.
Scissorgames is the first time I’ve put my own lyrics into the public domain. It’s exciting and fascinating songs will invariably mean different things to different people depending on their perspectives and experiences. I really welcome that and would love to know what the songs mean for other listeners.
I do really enjoy the interplay between the guitars and the delicate flute at the outset of the third movement before we then get a gorgeous acoustic guitar passage. It is wonderfully pastoral. The band’s comments on this section would be appreciated.
Charlie: Yes, it’s a lovely change of pace from the preceding parts as we get deeper into the Puppet King’s game. Graham’s clean guitar solo here is beautiful and melodic, wringing a lot of emotion out each note, and Mark’s sequence is very atmospheric and distinctive. I heard this years ago actually! It would have been round the time that A Tower Of Clocks was coming out and the band was already working ostensibly on what could have been material for the third This Winter Machine album. Obviously, things turned out a little differently and this section ended up as part of Scissors.
Being a flautist as well as a singer I was hopeful I could find some space in the material for a flute passage, but not at the expense of the material or mood. Fortunately, I found something that slotted in before the key change that leads to Graham’s solo, and we hear those shifts in the Puppet King’s game as the stakes become clearer. We go from a sinister hand lurking in the shadows, to a contemplative dance of the strings, to a frantic struggle as the Puppet King’s grip on the protagonist becomes tighter in the fourth section. What makes this part extra effective, I think, is how it juxtaposes with the powerful reprise of the solo’s melody line in the fifth section later, as Hope re-emerges as a player in the game.
The fourth movement announces itself with more expansive synths and guitar chords before we get a fine guitar solo in the best tradition of English rock music. This introduces your return with vocals, and it is a particularly delicate passage, yearning in its impact. Again, it is talking of human marionettes was, initially to me, a political commentary, but that talk about losing the game long ago, and of us all ignoring the pain is deeply moving and the move then into the band as a collective taking this theme forward is very effective. Talk us through this piece, please.
Charlie: That solo! It’s a big moment for Scotty.
Scott: When writing solos, I sit down and spend time with the section of music I’ll be soloing over. Sometimes ideas and themes flow easily, but on other occasions, like on this solo, I have to keep experimenting, and trying the ideas during our rehearsals to see what works best. I try and put my emotion at that moment into the solo and attempt to take the listener on the journey with me. Hopefully that came across on this one.
Charlie: Yep, this one was fine-tuned over the summer of 2021 and what you get is a thrilling climax to that fourth section of the song. It’s a high point musically and it achieves such a zenith that Mark’s ringing piano chords which follow on from it land with such power as the rest of the band drops out.
Again, I hadn’t considered how you might attach a political commentary to it. There is something societal about turning a blind eye to the abuses that are in front of us – some blatant, some masked. Once we become aware of the Puppet King’s game, it becomes easier to see him for what he is. What’s interesting to me here is that the point-of-view character doesn’t take any direct action himself. He’s succumbed to the Puppet King and let’s Hope take the scissors instead, while he and the rest of the human puppets try to hide their shame. I wonder how things might have been different if the protagonist had confronted the Puppet King instead. Can you think of any situations where you wish you’d said or done something, with the benefit of hindsight?
The final movement of the opening track has a fine guitar solo which is clearly a reference to some of Steve Rothery’s more expansionist pieces, and its sounds great. It is a brilliant close to a wonderful suite of music, and the closing piano chords take us down gently. All of you must be very proud of this.
Stuart: When originally written, this part was more in the Steve Hackett style. Think Firth of Fifth or the Fountain of Salmacis end solo. There may be a nod to Steve Rothery, but he is heavily influenced by Hackett also.
Graham: In playing terms I accept the Rothery comparisons gladly - along with Alex Lifeson and Johnny Marr he is my favourite guitar player so it's inevitable I am influenced by him. Unlike Andy, who can explain everything in minute musical detail, I cannot. Everything I do, I do by feel. My playing is 10% technique, 90% feel and emotion. I try to play parts which suit the song, and the song is all that matters. I don't care if my playing is fast or fancy, I want it to suit the song.
Some bits I play feel really important to me, like the clean melody from earlier, and this final solo which Stuart wrote years ago in Scissors. I think it's great music and that's what matters to me, rather than what I might be playing. Writing and playing Ghost Of The Machine music is very exciting for me, so long may that continue.
Charlie: This section’s almost as old as I am! Stuart wrote the guitar solo back in the early ‘90s. Graham’s interpretation of it is faithful, and it really fit with what we were doing, creating a powerful ending to the first track. It’s incredible what putting a fresh coat of paint on older ideas can achieve. There are so many layers in this section that when we play it live, I have to play the mellotron part. Hey, it’s nice to have something to do during these proggy instrumentals!
Let’s look at the remaining pieces before we get to the reprise of Scissors. In my review, I said Mountain reminded me a lot of the more upbeat tracks from The Old Road, that classic, and sadly his farewell to recorded music, album by Martin Orford. Firstly, this was the initial single from the album. Why choose Mountain, which is quite a long track just short of eight minutes long?
Charlie: It wasn’t the original choice actually. At one point we were going to go with Mercury Rising (Part II) but listening back it didn’t do justice to that piece to separate it from Part I. Just For Reference was another contender on account of its relative brevity, but that song didn’t quite “announce” Ghost Of The Machine’s arrival in the way we felt that Mountain did. Mountain had the hooks. It has a thumping chorus and a strong arrangement that powers through from beginning to end. We heard the final mix from Bob, turned to each other and said, “that’s the single.”
Since we’re probably not a band that’s going to be courting pop chart success in the immediate future, the length of the song didn’t matter too much. The prog-friendly radio stations have been very generous with their airtime for Mountain, and it’s performed well on streaming services. Maybe our “Phil Collins” years will look a little different, who knows!
Why can I smell burning? Is that the sound of pitchforks being sharpened…?
I have always written about songs as to how they talk to me, and sometimes have expressed some hilarious howlers when discussing the meaning of a particular piece. In my review, I referred to the fact I thought this was inspired by a personal emotional experience as opposed to a physical climb. This is the Ghost Of The Machine opportunity to point out to Lazland that another whopping howler has been written, or, indeed, that I was bang on the money!
Charlie: That’s the thing with music and lyrics – like we’ve already touched on they are so open to interpretation. Even if the author has a fixed meaning in mind, they are likely to be shaped by their own experiences and influences, and the listener will have their own. It’d be remiss of me to shoot you down for having your own personal response to a song… unless you were WILDLY off the mark 😉
But we feel the same way about Mountain! I think it’s about an unrequited or at least an uneven love for someone who doesn’t behold you with the same admiration you have for them, and it can take a huge effort to get past that, to stop clinging on in the hope that this immovable presence might suddenly feel the same way you do. When we find ourselves in these situations, it can be difficult to see past the mountain in front of us, no? But it is possible to move forward… over, or around, or simply to climb back down. As long as you find yourself moving again.
Very noticeable is a strong rhythm section underpinning all above it. I would be interested in seeing Stuart & Andy’s thoughts on their contribution to this piece.
Stuart: The bass came before the drums in this case. However, due to the way we play together, parts evolve as one reacts to what other is playing. So, what was conceived originally is probably pretty different to how it turned out. That is the secret sauce, I guess. On Mountain we built from the intro and tried to maintain a high level of drive and drama.
Andy: As a drummer, I ‘see’ rhythmic structure within melody and harmony. With all the songs you hear, melodic passages are presented by Mark predominantly which are given breadth by other members. Stu even plays bass very melodically so mostly I bring rhythmically structured ideas to the table which use their melodies, but I make them aggressive or open, heavy or soft in feel. I break their phrases into different patterns or an alternative feel. The song structure then grows organically as each member follows this and/or then alters their parts with ideas around the rhythms. Take the last section of ‘Mountain’ for example: Graham and I were going for a heavy ending and were bouncing ideas when he came up with that quaver phrasing 1-2-3-1-2-3-4-5. I then felt it with a heavy crotchet triplet snare against a quaver china, filled in with kick drum creating a non-resolving 3 over 4 pattern that adds to the relentless feel of Graham’s part. Stu then added the Wah pedal effect on his bass which made it even heavier.
Just for Reference in its opening passage is clearly heavily influenced by a certain Mr Rothery and his wonderful band, I would say in the Holidays in Eden period. Fair?
Mark: I wouldn't actually say it was reminiscent of the Holidays in Eden side of Marillion. I write almost 95% with piano and my influences there are Eric Satie, Japan and Billy Currie of Ultravox. Melody and mood are paramount for me.
Charlie: The piano notes resonated with me right from the off. I hadn’t really thought of this one as sounding much like Marillion like Mark says – perhaps it’s the delay effect on the guitar that brings it to mind, but it was chosen in service of the mood of the song rather than anything else.
However, at four minutes we get a Yorkshire band rocking out in a truly magnificent fit of Celtic sensibilities, and this is perhaps my favourite passage on the album. I like the fact there are such interesting contrasts on a short piece of music, so how this track came together is of interest, please.
Stuart: This track came together in rehearsal. Mark had the main body of the song, but we needed a middle section. The key change with high bridge vocal and guitar solo came from this.
Charlie: Yes, this one was pretty much perfectly formed when I arrived. I don’t think we touched the arrangement at all after I joined. If we’re picking favourites, this might actually be mine. The vocal part slotted in very quickly, the first one I finished writing in fact. What I like about Just For Reference is that it shows we can pack a lot of ideas into a short song just as much as we can tackle a 28-minute prog suite.
It is a very accessible track, and on this website that is a positive comment as opposed to a criticism. I am curious as to how much commercial considerations are in your minds when recording such an album. Are they a factor, or does the deeply unhelpful musical landscape for quality rock music in 2022 mean that you simply make the music you enjoy as opposed to what might sell, or be heard on more mainstream radio?
Charlie: I’m with you on this – melody is pretty much the cornerstone of what we do, and I think we succeeded at packing a lot of memorable hooks into Scissorgames. Commercial considerations don’t factor in too much. Being in a prog band isn’t the most effective way to make a living, especially for bands in the streaming age. This leaves us pretty free to craft something that we’re proud of first and foremost, but we’re really confident in this album and we’re very excited for as many people to hear it as possible.
The “prog” label is a curious one, because it’s hard to define – see the endless “is it prog” debates online that we associate with certain artists that experimented with their sound and song structures while still having a broad appeal. At the same time, being a “Prog” band with a capital P lumps you in with a very specific subset of rock bands and comes with certain stereotypes which in some respects we do satisfy, sonically, and with the long songs and instrumental passages, so on and so forth. Heck, even my penchant for a bit of theatre comes from the school of prog costumes and capes – is it so self-perpetuating?! It’s fine in that it helps you find an audience that’s already open to that sort of broad blueprint, but at the same time it carries connotations that might turn a more mainstream rock audience away. I reckon if more rock fans look past the length of the songs, they’d find something they like here. Luckily, there are a lot of prog-focused radio stations which are giving us an awful lot of airtime, for which we’re very grateful, and even a few that focus more on metal and rock without the P word. But mainstream radio… hmm. I’d best not mention our forthcoming “Phil Collins” years again...
My review of January’s Child was mixed. For this reviewer’s personal tastes, the track comes alive four minutes in when the pomp is replaced by a simply beautiful passage of music led by the piano initially, but with all of you creating something quite sensitive taking me to a different plane. Your comments on this would be appreciated, please, especially in the context of a band who are trying their damnedest to provide the public with their best and most honest effort. I think what I am trying to ask here is how musicians such as yourselves balance their feelings about the music and how it is written about.
Charlie: This one was written in January 2021 and kept its working title! There was a clear shift toward “rocking” a bit harder on this album than on the previous This Winter Machine releases, and that continues here with the dramatic riffs and percussive urgency. The reflective piano-led section you speak of is something of a “chrysalis” moment for our protagonist on their journey to self-acceptance. They no longer recognise their past self and are no longer on the path they once set out upon. There’s a lament for all the things that could have been but never were, and it’s the start of a healing process. I feel like the character spends a lot of time looking back and seeking some sort of wisdom or reassurance from their more carefree childhood-self – perhaps they didn’t have the support they needed in the environment they grew up in and they’re trying to reconcile that by looking to the past – but ultimately they realise they have to face up to whatever traumas and obstacles are holding them back from the viewpoint of the here and now. It’s a song of conflicts and contrasts, drama and dynamics, and it felt very much in the style of the rest of the album to us. We enjoy playing it together and I love to just cut loose and move with the music as it thunders into that double time section toward the end.
All that said, it’s impossible to gauge how songs will be received once we unleash them upon the public, bearing in mind we lived with them for a good year or more before anyone else heard them. As creators, we’ll automatically have a different relationship with these songs than the listeners will, and each listener will have their own unique experience with it. You’ve already illuminated this by sharing your own readings and reactions in your review, and in the questions you’ve asked for this interview. It’s fascinating, and it’s wonderful, because we’re all shaped by our own experiences and our own tastes, and it’s really exciting to me to see different readings and reactions to these songs.
It’s fair to say January’s Child has probably had the most mixed reception of all the tracks, whereas something like Scissors has had a much more consistent response from reviewers. Certainly, we’ll all have our favourite songs but I also believe we wouldn’t stick anything on an album that we weren’t happy with as a group. If we could pin down what was going to work every time for getting a universally positive response, then the writing process would be far too formulaic, wouldn’t it?
Further to that question, I would be interested in hearing what you all feel is the most unfair or ignorant thing ever written about you is, and why.
Charlie: Most of what we’ve seen is actually really positive. If I had to pick something, it would be the notion that our name Ghost Of The Machine is intended as spiteful in some way. It isn’t. It was the only name that felt right because we all shared a bond through This Winter Machine. It’s a nod to that legacy, while This Winter Machine continues.
Mercury Rising. That opening segment, and its reprise at the close, really hit the button for me. There are some interesting sound effects behind the piano one minute in alongside some deceptively simple percussion. Combined with the guitar riffs, I thoroughly enjoyed this passage.
Charlie: Thank you. We love this segment as a group. In rehearsal, when Mark and Graham play through Part I, the rest of us listen with the same awe as when we first heard it. I’ve mentioned it before to another interviewer that it’s Andy’s favourite part of the album, and not because he gets a break from drumming! The riff that leads into Part II and repeats in the outro later ALWAYS gets stuck in my head. Part I is one of the more atmospheric moments of the album. Cinematic and epic…
Please provide my readers with the lyrical ideas behind this track.
Charlie: … and that epic scope took me down the Roman mythology track, specifically a part of Ovid’s Fasti. See how we come back to prog cliches? Anyway. It’s about the river nymph Larunda who spilled the secrets of Jupiter’s affair and was punished by the god of thunder. He tore out her tongue and commanded that she be taken to the underworld by Mercury, but Mercury became infatuated with her along the way. I felt for Larunda in this because the gods conspired to take away her voice and her agency, and she was left with the decision to succumb to Mercury’s desires or be cast into the underworld – caught between metal and fire, two bad choices. This story fit in with the themes of abuse and control we’re exploring on Scissorgames.
Dead To Me really did take me back to those halcyon days of 1983 & 1984 and as a piece of nostalgia was very welcome. Is this a fair comment, please? The track made me smile, and in the present climate that really is no bad thing at all. There is a sense of the operatic and dramatic in this piece, and that guitar solo about three minutes in is haunting. Talk us through the construction of this track from its infancy to execution.
Mark: Dead To Me, as with Just For Reference, melody and mood is again order of the day. There's no purposeful intention to write a certain piece or style; what comes out is what comes out. A friend of mine on first listen didn't like it, not because it's bad but for how it made her feel, unnerving for her. Strange this music lark.
Charlie: Haunting’s a great word for this track. This is the only one on the album where I’m singing someone else’s lyrics, and Graham happened to be in the studio with me on that recording day, so it was easily the scariest one for me to tackle! The delivery stayed very close to Graham’s demo because there was no way I could have improved on that. There’s an otherworldliness I get from this song. It sits in its own pocket of space and time. Mark’s unusual arrangement carries me through like I’m in a dream state. Graham’s guitar solo is devastating in its emotion as are the words he wrote. “Never fear the fall”.
A late addition in the studio was a backing vocal from Graham himself on the “You’re dead to me” line. It’s extremely subtle but when I heard it back in the mix it floored me. I love singing with G-Dawg and another thing I’m proud of on Scissorgames is how and where we used vocal harmonies, sparingly but for maximum impact.
And so, to the Scissors Reprise. I love that opening passage and the emotion in your voice is palpable. Very often, a vocalist does not need to shout or scream to put across a serious point, does he?
I’m really, really happy that this came across – thank you! It was about finding the right delivery for the character in that moment – she’s fragile and on the edge of breaking as the realisation of what she’s done sets in. The moment of violence has already happened. The consequences are coming later. This is the eye of the storm.
The lyrics talk about the wounds that will never heal. So, can they? And what about personal redemption for the abuser? These are difficult moral questions politicians and the media, especially, struggle with against a backdrop of popular sentiment. I would be interested in hearing your thoughts on this.
Oh gosh! You know, I’m enjoying this deep dive a lot.
I suspect Hope will carry the scars of what was done to her and what she’s done in reply forever. But a scar is not the same as an open wound. I like to think she could find some kind of personal reconciliation in time, but her the trauma of what’s happened is a scab that may be picked at for a while yet. And I stated in my last answer that consequences are coming down the track. Far more often than not, the abuse victim who kills their abuser will go to prison, be it for murder or a successful plea for manslaughter or diminished responsibility. So, there are unanswered questions about what justice looks like which we’ve not addressed in Scissors. I do hope that Hope will learn to forgive herself wherever she ends up, but it won’t be easy.
As for the abuser, by naming him the Puppet King, he’s cast as grotesque and plainly malevolent. Scissors is not so nuanced in that respect, as we’re mostly seeing it from the point of view of his victims, and what happened, happened – it can’t be changed after the fact. Though he is painted as evil, did the Puppet King deserve to die? And will everyone believe Hope when she recounts what the Puppet King did to her?
The album ends with a brief reprise of the Puppet King’s motif from section two of the opening track, and I think this points to the cycle of violence that begets more violence. There will always be another Puppet King lurking in the shadows of the world, and new victims to be drawn in by his charm, or his power, whatever characteristics his new incarnation possesses to his advantage.
5:40. Bass riff before the piano. Powerful. Channelling that wonderful progressive tradition of the bass being used as a lead instrument to tell a story, as opposed to simply driving along the band on a beat. Please ask Stuart how this wonderful passage was created and how it all fitted into the narrative you wanted to tell.
Charlie: I love this moment too – it’s such a mournful passage, but beautiful. Stuart will be very pleased you’ve found time to mention it in this lengthy interview. Simply, this part was written as a necessary bridging piece between the sombre mood and the explosive celebration of the opening and closing parts of Scissors (Reprise). Narratively, we’re at the absolute depths of despair for Hope as she contemplates all that has happened, and the enormity of what she’s done. There were no words needed to put that across; Stuart conveys it perfectly.
You must (and should) be extremely proud of this debut album. On the day this interview is being sent to you, the band are playing in Oundle, and there are a series of live shows coming up which can be seen on your website at https://ghostofthemachineofficial.com/shows How have the shows gone down, please?
Playing live is a privilege and a joy. All the better when we find “our people” who love what we do. I’ve been performing on stages for a long time, and my bandmates are all experienced live musicians, so when we go out there, we can do it with confidence and energy. It’s my first time singing my own words to an audience, so that’s a huge rush. I’m drawn to a theatrical presentation, and I have a lot of fun exploring the way I’m going to move and express myself with this material. It’s a change from what I did before in covers bands where there was more room for homage – now it’s more personal than ever.
We had a blast at the first ever Soundle Weekend and we’re very grateful to Bob Cheatham for inviting us to be part of it and to his great team for organising a wonderful event. It was our third show as Ghost Of The Machine, and the response was great. It was a big opportunity to reach new people and I’m looking forward to more shows like that, festival appearances and such.
For our first show, we opened for IT who were brilliant, extremely accommodating, and supportive to us, and we had a really good turnout! There were quite a few familiar faces as we blasted the room with material they’d never heard before.
12 June in Hull was a real party. Haze opened and put the crowd in great spirits with a superb set, and then we played out of our skins to a crowd of people who’d had their CDs for about a week and knew the material well enough to make it a real celebration. They were so engaged. I think of a particular gentleman who stood at the front of the stage singing along to all the songs; I think he knew the words better than I did! I’m so proud of that show and I think it pointed toward a really promising future for Ghost Of The Machine as a live band.
Next up we’re at Danfest in Leicester on 27 November, we’ll meet up with The Dame and The Far Meadow in Sheffield again on 1 December, and we’ll close out 2022 with a support slot for Franck Carducci and the Fantastic Squad on 9 December – that show’s moved to Wigan due to the unfortunate closure of The Citadel as a live venue. As for next year, we’ve got some great stuff lined up, some of which is announced on the website already. Can’t wait!
When can we expect a follow up album, please? Has work already started, and, if so, how is it progressing? Can we expect any surprises or shifts from Scissorgames?
Charlie: We were working on new material months before we’d finished recording Scissorgames! A few songs are far along in development, and there’s a plethora of other ideas which we’re exploring. I’m lucky to be in a band with five very creative musicians. It’s exciting to see the whole process this time, as a good chunk of the music for Scissorgames had already been written when I joined the band. I love how organic the writing sessions are, with a lot of freedom to explore ideas before we get to the hard graft of being editorial and self-critical. A ten plus minute song idea can just fall out from nowhere after a couple of hours in the studio. Other times Mark might bring in an epic that he's written in his shed on a Sunday morning before his pub session and we work on that on the Monday. Everyone brings ideas and riffs and melodies that we work on and add to. It’s a team of people which have a lot of trust in each other.
What we have so far is markedly different from the tone and feel of Scissorgames while still sounding like Ghost Of The Machine, which is what any band would want for its sophomore effort. It’s going to go that way as long as we trust our process. It’s the same group of people writing new music at a later point in time – our ideas are going to evolve in a different direction by themselves, and once the themes start to solidify the rest can kind of coalesce around that. I’m quite confident I know what lyrical ideas I want to explore this time around, but I’m afraid you’ll have to wait and see… hey, things could change between now and then! But a pretty solid concept has emerged.
Thank you so much for agreeing to this interview. I wish you every success moving forward.
Charlie: Thank you from all of us, and likewise! We wish you well and we look forward to doing it again sometime. This has been the deepest dive we’ve taken in an interview so far. To your readers, if you’ve made it this far… thank you and we hope you’ve enjoyed it!
